- rmrd Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 2:28 pmThe problem with the folks who are not idiots, is that many have reached a comfort zone of beliefs that are difficult to penetrate.
.
If you are watching Fox News, reading the Washington Times or NY Post, listening to Rush Limbaugh, and using Drudge Report or Newsmax as your home page, there will have to be a large effort expended to make you receptive to an alternative POV.
.
It seems about 25-35% of the country is hard core in their beliefs about Democrats, gay rights, abortion, etc. These are truly core beliefs. The only response for Liberals is to put the actual facts in play, but I wouldn't expect the hard core group to change their political perspective.
.
Ms. Wilder would not consider herself a leech on society because she worked hard to earn the benefits. It is the other folks who are slackers. - 53_3 Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 2:33 pm"It seems about 25-35% of the country is hard core in their beliefs about Democrats, gay rights, abortion, etc. These are truly core beliefs."
.
In our current media climate, one can pick and choose what one wants to listen to, and with the Fairness Doctrine no longer in the way, one never has to hear anything that would be contrary to the opinions they form.
.
It's like a cult, nothing goes in unless vetted by the leader. I'm sure that everyone has noticed that right wing websites are rigidly moderated, and all other websites fill the remainder of the spectrum form totally free to loosely moderated. - wvng Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 4:10 pmrmrd, Matt Taibbi spoke to your pont the other day. Via sgw:
.
The really irritating thing about these morons is that, guaranteed, not one of them has ever taken a serious look at the federal budget. Not one has ever bothered to read an actual detailed study of what their taxes pay for. All they do is listen to one-liners doled out by tawdry Murdoch-hired mouthpieces like Michelle Malkin and then repeat them as if they're their own opinions five seconds later. That's what passes for political thought in this country. Teabag on, you fools. - wvng Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 4:41 pmSZ: We can't abandon people to their own ignorant fantasy world, in which they construct all kinds of imaginary injustices out of real ones. In other words, we can't abandon folks to Republican standard operating procedure.
.
I agree completely, but I don't know what the remedy is. Many on the right have been conditioned, for a long time, to viscerally mistrust or actively avoid any information that comes from other than their trusted sources- Faux News, Limbaugh, et al. We all know them, and the shell is pretty thick. There is no way to penetrate that shell via mass media, because they are conditioned to ignore it. So you have to do it by ones and twos.
.
And most people aren't equipped with both the accurate information and the delivery skills to make a dent against paid propagandists. - stuartzechman Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 5:47 pmwvng:
.
I don't know what the remedy is
.
The remedy that's been suggested by Barack Obama is to talk to them like they're human beings after you're done making sure that they can't harm the country by defeating them politically. That also means making an effort to understand them and how they think, instead of taking refuge in self-congratulatory mockery. It means being better than them when we become more powerful. It means living up to our ideas. It means making an effort not to laugh at them for the wrong reasons. It means being vigilant against hubris, tribalism and exceptionalism. It means making an effort, period.
.
I like to think that this is my approach, too. - rmrd Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 6:44 pmPart of treating people like they are human beings is pointing out when they say something truly outrageous. If spob calls someone a "nut" or "dummie", you can ask that spob use different language to get a Conservative idea across. I have done this in the past. However, if spob gets responses using negative language identical in tone to that offered by spob, it should not be surprising. Human
nature is to respond in kind. Many Swamplanders temporarily suspend communication with spob or others because the Swamplander realizes the downward spiral of the online communication.
.
There is a difference in how people interact in a face to face situation, and the interaction that happens on a blog. I have a very Conservative friend who often enters into a conversation on a political issue just to get me upset. It is not really malicious, but a way for him to change the pace of the day. I initiate political conservations as well. We discuss the issue. No voices are raised, and the conversation ends with both of us laughing about how misguided the other person seems to be. We have even ....gasp, broken bread together at a wine dinner and were able to finish the meal without a food or fist fight despite a political conversation.
.
I think my experience is similar to other Swamplanders. The truly obnoxious Conservatives are avoided. You discuss issues with people you consider reasonable , but you realize that the person on the other side of the issue is not going to change their position on gay marriage, abortion, the stimulus package, or a host of other issues. We agree to disagree.
.
The conversations help solidify why you believe what you believe, and the weaknesses in the argument being made by the other side. On rare occasions we actually agree on an issue.
.
In short, blog-life like Second life, is very different from real life. The coarser words and tone will tend to be used in a blog. - somepeoplelikeit Says:
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 11:03 pmSZ, The remedy that's been suggested by Barack Obama is to talk to them like they're human beings
Yes, in reality. But I remind you I live in Texas. They are not sure I'm a human being. Trying not to laugh in mockery is one thing, but I would be laughed at if I said Jesus wasn't coming back.
.
But at least there are some minorities and honest white guys around, makes the day go by.
Saturday, April 18, 2009
What Stuart Said ...
7 comments:
sz, I once spent two hours around a campfire talking politics and science with a dittohead. He had been conditioned to the point that he wouldn't consider information outside of RW talk radio. Limbaugh had been telling him for years that melting ice caps wouldn't raise sea level - cause ice melting in a cup doesn't raise the level of the water in the cup. After two hours, my wife and i got him to understand the difference between ice on water melting, and ice on land melting and that, oh my, major ice masses on land melting would indeed raise the level of receiving waters.
ReplyDelete
.
Tiny steps.
AnonymousApril 18, 2009 at 2:29 PMwvng, I take as a given that Liberals try to communicate with Conservatives. It would be difficult to converse with truly die hard wingnuts.
ReplyDelete
Effort would better be expended on Conservative Democrats like those in Congress pushing to slow down Obama's agenda.
Are labor unions a major problem? Arkansas Senator Blanche Lincoln is voting against a measure to allow freer union voting in the workplace. Sen Lincoln says that she is pro-union.
I'd much rather converse with a Lincoln style Democrat than a Limbaugh style Conservative.
That also means making an effort to understand them and how they think, instead of taking refuge in self-congratulatory mockery.That's a good point, and something I should watch out for.
ReplyDelete
But when spob and rusty consistently refuse to acknowledge evidence that contradicts their views, how long are we obligated to bang our heads on the wall trying to get through to them?
And in said banging, do we run the risk of making their views look legitimate? Or the risk of allowing them to derail conversations about serious topics?
And, after eight years plus of utter misrule, shouldn't the burden be on them to prove their ideas have any value whatsoever?Cliff, that is my gut response as well. But my head keeps saying that the spobs and rustys represent too much of our population to give up on. We need an outreach strategy that incrementally picks away at the delusions to the point that they suddenly collapse in toto. That happened to Balloon Juice's John Cole. Also happened to my father-in-law. Both very intelligent people who just believed RW stuff "because."
ReplyDeleteI had another thought - this is a culture that values passion and strength and gut feelings - which is not to say that the Left lacks these qualities (witness the passionate outrage against torture), but we respond to evidence and logic as well.
ReplyDelete
And I think there's the view that if we somehow just find the right line of logic we can get through to the hardcore right.
But I'm not sure about that. I'm not the first to argue this, but they see diplomacy as weakness, and when we try to sit down with them with a cool head and reasoned arguments, at least some of them think we are being weak.
If they're going to respond to emotional appeals and gut feelings, then we need to speak, in part, about our emotional views on the subject. And I think this helps convey our dedication to the progressive philosophy.
But of course the problem with all that is it quickly devolves into a shouting match, and I'm not sure what the answer for it is.There may not be an answer. Or, perhaps, the only possible answer for the challenge of swaying all those rugged individualists on the right who follow a "dear leader" like sheep is to create a new dear leader to bring them along.
ReplyDelete
Friday, April 17, 2009 at 1:59 pm
somepeoplelikeit:
.
It's not crazy to have a problem with welfare when you feel like you're doing a bunch of paying for it, even if rich people who don't really feel it in their paychecks are paying for it, too.
.
It's really key that we communicate that we aren't a bunch of spoiled little college kids trying to right all of the wrongs of the world at our parents' expense --because we're not. It's super important that we understand the difference between the complete idiots who can't see the difference between their own dependence on the welfare state and what they're railing against --who the Republican Party depends on for reliable votes-- and normal people who haven't really understood the idea that a rising tide lifts all boats, and that they're helping themselves.
.
Issues of fairness and freedom are supposed to be what Democrats and liberals understand best. We can't abandon people to their own ignorant fantasy world, in which they construct all kinds of imaginary injustices out of real ones. In other words, we can't abandon folks to Republican standard operating procedure.
.
The Republicans have been able to take real injustices and manufacture fake ones. These guys aren't talking about what's being done to them now, they're talking about where things are headed. They've bought the idea that things are going to be really unfair to them, because the Republicans are selling the idea that the people who are in charge now don't like them, and don't understand them because of who they are.
.
Some people are just f*cking idiots, and there's nothing we can do about it, except to make damn sure that they don't get into political power in any capacity, be it school board, President of the United States, dogcatcher, whatever. Lots of people aren't, though, and we need to be able to tell the difference.